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	<title>Comments on: Boycott supporters: which side are you on?</title>
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		<title>By: ImadK</title>
		<link>http://www.realisticdove.org/archives/428#comment-16569</link>
		<dc:creator>ImadK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:45:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.realisticdove.org/archives/428#comment-16569</guid>
		<description>This was an interesting post. I also appreciated Dana&#039;s and Uri&#039;s posts as well, though it should be noted that i myself have some reservations about BDS. 

I emailed Professor Mark Levine, who has been to the region, wrote about the Is-Pal situation, the Muslim world and Muslim culture in the books 
Impossible Peace (about the failure of the Oslo peace process), 
Why They don&#039;t hate us: lifting the veil in the Axis of Evil (About the misconceptions of Muslims post 9/11) and 
Heavy Metal Islam (about rock and hip hop among the youth in the Middle East and North Africa, how it bridges gaps and questions authority as well as break stereotypes in that region)


I really respect him and i wrote this email to him asking about the effectiveness of BDS.

He replied (copied and paste from my folders: 

&quot;hard to know. i think it hurts around the edges but israelis are used to feeling besieged and it willtake a long time to have the effectiveness as the south africa campaign back in the day because israel has many more allies, especially in the US and europe, its core markets. so i think it will help a bit but not devisively in any way. that being said, i think bds can be an effective tool, especially forraising awareness. but it also needs to be better explaiend why israel and why not china, or russia, or india, or even the US, who are all engaged in brutal occupations that involved even more people being oppressed and killed before it can become more mainstream.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was an interesting post. I also appreciated Dana&#8217;s and Uri&#8217;s posts as well, though it should be noted that i myself have some reservations about BDS. </p>
<p>I emailed Professor Mark Levine, who has been to the region, wrote about the Is-Pal situation, the Muslim world and Muslim culture in the books<br />
Impossible Peace (about the failure of the Oslo peace process),<br />
Why They don&#8217;t hate us: lifting the veil in the Axis of Evil (About the misconceptions of Muslims post 9/11) and<br />
Heavy Metal Islam (about rock and hip hop among the youth in the Middle East and North Africa, how it bridges gaps and questions authority as well as break stereotypes in that region)</p>
<p>I really respect him and i wrote this email to him asking about the effectiveness of BDS.</p>
<p>He replied (copied and paste from my folders: </p>
<p>&#8220;hard to know. i think it hurts around the edges but israelis are used to feeling besieged and it willtake a long time to have the effectiveness as the south africa campaign back in the day because israel has many more allies, especially in the US and europe, its core markets. so i think it will help a bit but not devisively in any way. that being said, i think bds can be an effective tool, especially forraising awareness. but it also needs to be better explaiend why israel and why not china, or russia, or india, or even the US, who are all engaged in brutal occupations that involved even more people being oppressed and killed before it can become more mainstream.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://www.realisticdove.org/archives/428#comment-16568</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Mar 2010 06:05:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.realisticdove.org/archives/428#comment-16568</guid>
		<description>excellent comment by Uri, which I agree with wholeheartedly. I support BDS as the one AND ONLY tool to break through to the Israelis the message that bad actions have consequences. In addition to all of Uri&#039;s questions, which I endorse, I have one major caveat with Dan&#039;s take. He is hopeful in the way Jewish Americans tend to be about Israel seeing  what happened to it, but averting their eyes from the full extent of zionism&#039;s fall from grace as an ideology. I am much less limited by hope, having come from there and having watched that country and its people descend down a slippery slope faster than I ever thought possible. Dan speaks of Israeli collective as if it were a rational entity, probably because he knows rational individuals from there. But as a collective, it is not rational any longer - as Gaza has proved, as the recent murder in Dubai did. The israeli collective (exceptions noted, of course) lives in a bubble that&#039;s becoming more hermetically sealed by the day. From inside the bubble they may have seen Gaza or Dubai as &quot;deterrents&quot;, successful ones at that. Most of the rest of world saw both actions as failures on a monumental scale, and not just strategically or politically. Israel is well on its way to becoming a law-flaunting state. Other than those few NGOs, the entire concept of human rights escapes the conciousness of a majority of israel&#039;s residentsmuch the same as any other group historically engaged in a classical colonialist enterprise. Being a colonialist means having a certain mind-set, being able to  pretend that things don&#039;t happen on the other side of the wall they are encased in. 

BDS is the only way I know to get through that wall and penetrate the colonialist or xenophobic siege mentality. Since the collective is not rational, behavior modification is the only tool available to possibly shock them into sanity. Yes, shock is not a nice thing to deliver. But it helped many a schizophrenic before better drugs came along, and it just might  help Israel too. Carrots were already tried and failed  quite miserably. Groups promoting &quot;better understanding&quot; were tried too. Few survived intact. Now it is necessary to show that bratiness and hubris will not go unchallenged by the world community. 

Israel is unfrotunately deeply mired in the equivalent of Jim Crow&#039;s south vis a vis the arab citizens and practices full blown apartheid with regard to the palestinians under occupation. The citizens know what they are doing. They think they can get away with it just as the south did, just as south africa did. They don&#039;t really give a hoot about anyone else because that&#039;s the mind frame of the deeply neurotic. BDS may just shake enough of the collective up from the stupor they fell into - enough to start considering alternatives. As a stick, BDS is the only thing that will be effective in waking up at least part of the Israeli community. They need to know that they stand to lose something if the course of action doesn&#039;t change.. 

The nice thing about BDS is that everyone does what they can. Some boycott above ground, others just under the radar. However long it takes. It&#039;s collecting steam as we speak - among the young in the US, around the world among perfectly ordinary people from all walks of life. In churches and even in synagogs. It&#039;s making its way through labor unions and trade organizations and the first successes have been noted in universities and schools. Corporations will come along when they see it&#039;s in their best interest as will cities and towns and eventually - who knows- entire countries. personally,  I practice it as best I can through collaborations and alliances that don&#039;t happen. Technologies not recommended and talk invitations not issued. It sounds negative, but it&#039;s effective enough because I get to be as selective as I want to be. Just as we all are in life. Those who need to know do. Those who don&#039;t - well - not everything needs to be advertised. Those who ask questions get answers, and inactions -like actions - spread among those who are so inclined. It&#039;s actually quite easy to do something. Or to not do something. From each what they can.

I know that a day will come and BDS as it is carried out now will be seen as the water that wore down the rock&#039;s hardened surface. For that day, we can all hope.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>excellent comment by Uri, which I agree with wholeheartedly. I support BDS as the one AND ONLY tool to break through to the Israelis the message that bad actions have consequences. In addition to all of Uri&#8217;s questions, which I endorse, I have one major caveat with Dan&#8217;s take. He is hopeful in the way Jewish Americans tend to be about Israel seeing  what happened to it, but averting their eyes from the full extent of zionism&#8217;s fall from grace as an ideology. I am much less limited by hope, having come from there and having watched that country and its people descend down a slippery slope faster than I ever thought possible. Dan speaks of Israeli collective as if it were a rational entity, probably because he knows rational individuals from there. But as a collective, it is not rational any longer &#8211; as Gaza has proved, as the recent murder in Dubai did. The israeli collective (exceptions noted, of course) lives in a bubble that&#8217;s becoming more hermetically sealed by the day. From inside the bubble they may have seen Gaza or Dubai as &#8220;deterrents&#8221;, successful ones at that. Most of the rest of world saw both actions as failures on a monumental scale, and not just strategically or politically. Israel is well on its way to becoming a law-flaunting state. Other than those few NGOs, the entire concept of human rights escapes the conciousness of a majority of israel&#8217;s residentsmuch the same as any other group historically engaged in a classical colonialist enterprise. Being a colonialist means having a certain mind-set, being able to  pretend that things don&#8217;t happen on the other side of the wall they are encased in. </p>
<p>BDS is the only way I know to get through that wall and penetrate the colonialist or xenophobic siege mentality. Since the collective is not rational, behavior modification is the only tool available to possibly shock them into sanity. Yes, shock is not a nice thing to deliver. But it helped many a schizophrenic before better drugs came along, and it just might  help Israel too. Carrots were already tried and failed  quite miserably. Groups promoting &#8220;better understanding&#8221; were tried too. Few survived intact. Now it is necessary to show that bratiness and hubris will not go unchallenged by the world community. </p>
<p>Israel is unfrotunately deeply mired in the equivalent of Jim Crow&#8217;s south vis a vis the arab citizens and practices full blown apartheid with regard to the palestinians under occupation. The citizens know what they are doing. They think they can get away with it just as the south did, just as south africa did. They don&#8217;t really give a hoot about anyone else because that&#8217;s the mind frame of the deeply neurotic. BDS may just shake enough of the collective up from the stupor they fell into &#8211; enough to start considering alternatives. As a stick, BDS is the only thing that will be effective in waking up at least part of the Israeli community. They need to know that they stand to lose something if the course of action doesn&#8217;t change.. </p>
<p>The nice thing about BDS is that everyone does what they can. Some boycott above ground, others just under the radar. However long it takes. It&#8217;s collecting steam as we speak &#8211; among the young in the US, around the world among perfectly ordinary people from all walks of life. In churches and even in synagogs. It&#8217;s making its way through labor unions and trade organizations and the first successes have been noted in universities and schools. Corporations will come along when they see it&#8217;s in their best interest as will cities and towns and eventually &#8211; who knows- entire countries. personally,  I practice it as best I can through collaborations and alliances that don&#8217;t happen. Technologies not recommended and talk invitations not issued. It sounds negative, but it&#8217;s effective enough because I get to be as selective as I want to be. Just as we all are in life. Those who need to know do. Those who don&#8217;t &#8211; well &#8211; not everything needs to be advertised. Those who ask questions get answers, and inactions -like actions &#8211; spread among those who are so inclined. It&#8217;s actually quite easy to do something. Or to not do something. From each what they can.</p>
<p>I know that a day will come and BDS as it is carried out now will be seen as the water that wore down the rock&#8217;s hardened surface. For that day, we can all hope.</p>
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		<title>By: Uri</title>
		<link>http://www.realisticdove.org/archives/428#comment-16559</link>
		<dc:creator>Uri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 22:46:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.realisticdove.org/archives/428#comment-16559</guid>
		<description>Speaking as a BDS activist: I&#039;m not persuaded by your post, Dan. It would be far more persuasive if you could (i) show that a significant, representative sector of Palestinian society opposes BDS, as opposed to just not vocally supporting BDS; (ii) show why the current BDS campaign against Israel would not work, as opposed to making a broad, unanalytic statement about boycotts in general; (iii) address the usefulness of BDS as an education, organizing and publicity tool, showing that it would not be effective as such; (iv) back up with some analysis the claim that BDS harms joint I/P initiatives and economic development, and that absent such harm, such development has the potential to liberate Palestine; and perhaps most importantly, (V) offer superior alternatives that individuals can participate in. All I&#039;ve seen you offer is government action. I agree that these could be more effective than BDS, but it is a step removed from the question &quot;what can *I* do?&quot; I personally have done both lobbying and BDS work, and I can tell you BDS work is easier, more empowering, and you generally see tangible results from it. Hopefully we&#039;ll reach a time soon when the two will be complementary, and it will be easier for activists to plug into lobbying work, but we&#039;re not there yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking as a BDS activist: I&#8217;m not persuaded by your post, Dan. It would be far more persuasive if you could (i) show that a significant, representative sector of Palestinian society opposes BDS, as opposed to just not vocally supporting BDS; (ii) show why the current BDS campaign against Israel would not work, as opposed to making a broad, unanalytic statement about boycotts in general; (iii) address the usefulness of BDS as an education, organizing and publicity tool, showing that it would not be effective as such; (iv) back up with some analysis the claim that BDS harms joint I/P initiatives and economic development, and that absent such harm, such development has the potential to liberate Palestine; and perhaps most importantly, (V) offer superior alternatives that individuals can participate in. All I&#8217;ve seen you offer is government action. I agree that these could be more effective than BDS, but it is a step removed from the question &#8220;what can *I* do?&#8221; I personally have done both lobbying and BDS work, and I can tell you BDS work is easier, more empowering, and you generally see tangible results from it. Hopefully we&#8217;ll reach a time soon when the two will be complementary, and it will be easier for activists to plug into lobbying work, but we&#8217;re not there yet.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Mitchell</title>
		<link>http://www.realisticdove.org/archives/428#comment-16555</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Mitchell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 00:32:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.realisticdove.org/archives/428#comment-16555</guid>
		<description>Its also a &quot;power&quot; that parliaments have in many autocracies when a ruler proclaims a new constitution and then the parliament rubber stamps it. King Hussein regularly altered between periods of repression and periods of reform.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its also a &#8220;power&#8221; that parliaments have in many autocracies when a ruler proclaims a new constitution and then the parliament rubber stamps it. King Hussein regularly altered between periods of repression and periods of reform.</p>
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		<title>By: Koshiro</title>
		<link>http://www.realisticdove.org/archives/428#comment-16553</link>
		<dc:creator>Koshiro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:33:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.realisticdove.org/archives/428#comment-16553</guid>
		<description>a) You&#039;re responding to the wrong thread.
b) He didn&#039;t alter the constitution. The Algerian parliament did. That&#039;s a power parliaments have in many democracies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>a) You&#8217;re responding to the wrong thread.<br />
b) He didn&#8217;t alter the constitution. The Algerian parliament did. That&#8217;s a power parliaments have in many democracies.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Mitchell</title>
		<link>http://www.realisticdove.org/archives/428#comment-16552</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Mitchell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 06:23:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.realisticdove.org/archives/428#comment-16552</guid>
		<description>Koshiro:

Here is an excerpt from an article by David Ottoway in The Wilson Quarterly entitled the Arab Tomorrow.

&quot;Yet Arab leaders did respond to Bush’s call, and they proved master manipulators of democracy. They held elections, loosened press censorship, and allowed a bit more space for dissident voices on the Internet. And they quickly learned how to diffuse, divide, and checkmate even this feeble ­opposition. 

Mubarak simultaneously rigged election laws to make himself president for life and allowed the birth of a ­semi­free opposition press. Algerian president Abdelaziz Bouteflika permitted many political parties and 76 independent national daily newspapers to flourish even as he altered the constitution to perpetuate his rule.&quot;

But what does he know? He&#039;s only a leading journalist married to a leading academic who specializes in African and Arab affairs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Koshiro:</p>
<p>Here is an excerpt from an article by David Ottoway in The Wilson Quarterly entitled the Arab Tomorrow.</p>
<p>&#8220;Yet Arab leaders did respond to Bush’s call, and they proved master manipulators of democracy. They held elections, loosened press censorship, and allowed a bit more space for dissident voices on the Internet. And they quickly learned how to diffuse, divide, and checkmate even this feeble ­opposition. </p>
<p>Mubarak simultaneously rigged election laws to make himself president for life and allowed the birth of a ­semi­free opposition press. Algerian president Abdelaziz Bouteflika permitted many political parties and 76 independent national daily newspapers to flourish even as he altered the constitution to perpetuate his rule.&#8221;</p>
<p>But what does he know? He&#8217;s only a leading journalist married to a leading academic who specializes in African and Arab affairs.</p>
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		<title>By: Donald</title>
		<link>http://www.realisticdove.org/archives/428#comment-16551</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:07:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.realisticdove.org/archives/428#comment-16551</guid>
		<description>&quot;The right of return clarified as “any descendant of any Palestinian, regardless of what part of prospective Palestine they lived”, is a stacked deck.&quot;

So we&#039;re ending the right of return for people who might have lived in Palestine 2000 years ago?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The right of return clarified as “any descendant of any Palestinian, regardless of what part of prospective Palestine they lived”, is a stacked deck.&#8221;</p>
<p>So we&#8217;re ending the right of return for people who might have lived in Palestine 2000 years ago?</p>
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		<title>By: Koshiro</title>
		<link>http://www.realisticdove.org/archives/428#comment-16550</link>
		<dc:creator>Koshiro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 11:38:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.realisticdove.org/archives/428#comment-16550</guid>
		<description>@ Tom Mitchell
Whatever. Engaging in discussion with somebody who can, with a straight face, talk of a &quot;process of Eurarabization [...] continuing and on-going&quot; was not a terribly promising idea to begin with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Tom Mitchell<br />
Whatever. Engaging in discussion with somebody who can, with a straight face, talk of a &#8220;process of Eurarabization [...] continuing and on-going&#8221; was not a terribly promising idea to begin with.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://www.realisticdove.org/archives/428#comment-16549</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 11:30:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.realisticdove.org/archives/428#comment-16549</guid>
		<description>The right of return clarified as actual legal rights to their day in court to make property and direct legal claims, is reasonable.

The right of return clarified as &quot;any descendant of any Palestinian, regardless of what part of prospective Palestine they lived&quot;, is a stacked deck.

To the extent that is included in the demand of BDS, it is easily exposed and easily dismissed.

Again and again, if the concerns are conditional, clear, with an actual path to actual acceptance and normalization, then they are doable.

To the extent that demands remain ambiguous, opportunistic, then remain rhetoric only, cheap reasoning, pretending to be &quot;international law&quot;.

We need more than high school analysis of this stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The right of return clarified as actual legal rights to their day in court to make property and direct legal claims, is reasonable.</p>
<p>The right of return clarified as &#8220;any descendant of any Palestinian, regardless of what part of prospective Palestine they lived&#8221;, is a stacked deck.</p>
<p>To the extent that is included in the demand of BDS, it is easily exposed and easily dismissed.</p>
<p>Again and again, if the concerns are conditional, clear, with an actual path to actual acceptance and normalization, then they are doable.</p>
<p>To the extent that demands remain ambiguous, opportunistic, then remain rhetoric only, cheap reasoning, pretending to be &#8220;international law&#8221;.</p>
<p>We need more than high school analysis of this stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Mitchell</title>
		<link>http://www.realisticdove.org/archives/428#comment-16548</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Mitchell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 04:56:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.realisticdove.org/archives/428#comment-16548</guid>
		<description>Koshiro,

I take you as seriously as I take Bill Pearlman.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Koshiro,</p>
<p>I take you as seriously as I take Bill Pearlman.</p>
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